[Gaz]

If you didn't watch this, iPlayer it asap. It's very, very good indeed. Also, if Matt Smith hadn't been Doctor Who I'm pretty certain where he'd have ended up (and possibly vice versa).

[Gold Joinee Mhairi]

Totally agree, great telly. Cumberbatch was magic and so was Martin Freeman. Really really looking forward to next week. Also, Benedict Cumberbatch is now on my list, partly due to his amazing name and partly for those cheekbones...mmmmmhmmmm!!

[PJ Hannah B-R]

didn't watch it as just wasn't planning for it until too late (i plan far too much...) anyway, planning to watch it tonight, it really did look good.

And tor - in the same way as i could never fancy leo di caprio due to the first thing i say him in being 'what's eating gilbert grape' i can never fancy stephen hawking...

[Worm]

la la la - not reading this, got it on TiVo to watch......

[Gaz]

The funniest bit is imagining RTD watching this and it slowly dawning on him that this is is effectively Steven Moffat's Torchwood, and it's a million times better.

[Joinee Morna]

I loved it.
That is all.

[Au³ Joinee Jamie]

I appear to be the only person who didn't like this.

I didn't know anything about it before I watched it but the Doctor Who parallels are so obvious in a way I did like that about it but then I'm not sure yet.

Anyway, what Irked me was how simple it was. Every time anything happens it spells it out for you on screen before you've even had a chance to to and figure out for yourself what he's noticed. And the scene near the end where he's piecing it together just went on and on.

Spoiler

So it's a taxi driver, right, ok, stop showing me pictures of taxis now, I get it. Ok I'm going to make a cup of tea. Wait, still happening, is this scene just here so you can cut it when you need somewhere to put the adverts to show it on Dave?

It might get better and I haven't written it off, but these are meant to be mysteries that could only be solved by the greatest detective in the world and it was a little bit of a letdown that I could figure it out long before he did.

[GJ Drought]

loved this (more than dr who anyway)

that said... bumbersnatch is a ponce, and all ponces should be slapped upside the head


but he suited the role!

[Lethal Biddle]

SJ Buzz Drought, on 26 July 2010 - 11:33 AM, said:

all ponces should be slapped upside the head

[Mr Phil]

I liked it, but the whole taxi driver thing was quite obvious a long way before Sherlock figured it out.

[GJ Drought]

Lethal Biddle, on 26 July 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

ponces not to be confused with gents! this man is a fake! never been more certain of anything in my life dude!

[Captain K]

Totally agree with Jamie. Doctor Who for grown ups (but only in intention, not subtlety). Enough gay references laboured into the dialogue for no obvious reason, so that Russell T. would be proud. Incredibly obvious, laboured references to the clues. And why the hell did the taxi driver need to walk up the stairs to send the text? Gah.

All that said, Martin Freeman I did like a lot. Especially the shooting thing. That portrayal of Watson and the general darkness of the mood are shared with the best Holmes adaptations.

And that's Una Stubbs! There is life after Lionel Blair!

[GJ Drought]

you mean Aunt Sally! for the longest time i thought wurzel gummage was the killer!

[Worm]

Watched it last night, and enjoyed it, but agree with much of the criticism here.

It does show promise though, if only some modern writers could get over the idea that suggesting that someone might be gay is no longer a standout moment in TV. That said, there were some nice references in there - the 3-patch-problem, and the hint of drugs (which was more than a hint in the books).

My teeth grated a little at 'the game is on', but you have to live with these things

[Gaz]

Being nerdy, I really loved the bit about the mobile phone as the modern equivalent of Holmes working out Watson's brother was an alcoholic because of the scratches on his pocket watch.

[G J Katie]

I really enjoyed it and I will watch the next episode.

Cumberbatch and Freemen were two excellent bits of casting.

[Joinee Smith]

I am the only one waiting for John Watson to utter the immortal line.... No Shit Sherlock.



Jason

[Gaz]

That series was far too short, but very, very good.

[PJ Wopunga (GA)]

^ Totally agree. Let's hope for a second series. And if there is they'd better give me a proper way out of the cliffhanger, no sudden jumps to a new case. I want to know what happens!

[Gaz]

I liked the touch that the ending was a cliffhanger at a pool - not quite Reichenbach Falls, but still fitting

[Lethal Biddle]

SO!
End of Season 2 theories?

Spoiler

We know he isn't dead... but how? I still can't quite work it out. But the following seems important:

1 - Sherlock was very specific as to where Watson stood. He told him almost exactly. Maybe requiring a specific angle to not see through a trick?

2 - Watson getting hit by the cyclist at such a moment seemed very timely. A perfectly timed diversion? Could he also have been slipped the Baskervilles hallucinogen at that moment?

3 - Sherlock said he needed Molly. But we didn't find out what for. She's phorensics, so blood? A body even? Or faking his post mortem?

4 - The kids screamed as if it was Sherlock who'd kidnapped them... So did Moriarty have a Sherlock mask of some kind that he used to abduct them? Did he have it on him on the roof?

5 - There was a lot of wordplay from Moriarty on the roof about "You are me" & "We're the same". Also "Reichenbach Falls" = Richard Brook Falls. Both hint that perhaps it was him who fell off the roof not Sherlock.

The things that are throwing me off are Moriarty shooting himself. Not sure why he did that, seemed slightly out of character... but maybe not. I don't know. Also the flailing limbs as Sherlock fell. No explanation for that if it was actually just a corpse.

Just not sure how it all ties together yet. And we probably won't find out for 18 months or more.

[Worm]

Spoiler

I can't remember from the books - is is clear that Moriarty dies at the falls? Clearly Sherlock faked his death - but did Moriarty? I mean by that , is it explicitly stated that he died, rather than assumed? Will need to check my copy of the books when I get home.

Killing himself does seem clearly out of character, though they were playing up the 'brilliant but insane' angle which may explain it to a degree. That said, there were a couple of things that seemed out of character to Sherlock in my eyes - a press conference? really? not unless it helped in a case.

The ending definitely involves Molly to one degree or another - wouldn't be surprised if somehow it was Moriarty's body, or just a John Doe from the morgue.

[Lethal Biddle]

Worm, on 16 January 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Spoiler

I can't remember from the books - is is clear that Moriarty dies at the falls? Clearly Sherlock faked his death - but did Moriarty? I mean by that , is it explicitly stated that he died, rather than assumed? Will need to check my copy of the books when I get home.

Killing himself does seem clearly out of character, though they were playing up the 'brilliant but insane' angle which may explain it to a degree. That said, there were a couple of things that seemed out of character to Sherlock in my eyes - a press conference? really? not unless it helped in a case.

The ending definitely involves Molly to one degree or another - wouldn't be surprised if somehow it was Moriarty's body, or just a John Doe from the morgue.

Spoiler

In the book they fight & both fall into the depths & are both assumed dead. But no bodies are recovered. Holmes returns 3 years later, but Moriarty never did.

[Captain K]

Spoiler

Would go along with those suspicions based on what we've seen. Regarding the out-of-character behaviour of Moriarty, well, as soon as Moriarty shot himself I was presuming it had been a blank in the gun, and some fake blood, so he could enjoy the moment as Sherlock gave in and jumped. But that wouldn't prevent Molly from coming out, giving him a wig and fake nose, and, (together with Sherlock of course), pushing him off... having arranged for the cyclist. So, in that scenario the only really out-of-character thing would be Molly being so in love with Sherlock that she'd be prepared to murder Moriarty with him. Just a choice of which makes people more insane — being a criminal psychopath, or being in love...

[PJ Wopunga (GA)]

Spoiler

I hadn't got further than Molly being somehow involved. But I couldn't figure out how. I might need to watch the end of the episode again to have a closer look. No idea what the cyclist was about though - unless he was the real Sherlock acting as a diversion?

[Gaz]

Spoiler

I think John arriving and what we see on the roof at first up to Moriarty shooting himself don't happen quite at the same time - we're just led to believe they do from the way the scenes are cut. Sherlock can't let John get any closer because he knows he'll be able to see something's up - from the ground where John is all you can see is someone on the roof in a coat, not who it is. The person on the roof who falls isn't Sherlock - he was on the phone but then pushes the already dead body off (Moriarty?). The bike courier was arranged to knock John over so he wouldn't get to the body first and would be too groggy to look closely, and Molly then says "it's him" at autopsy - job done.

[Joinee Varwell]

Spoiler

I reckon Biddle and Gaz have it nailed. The elements mentioned above such as Molly (and her absence from the assassins' preparation sequences - so she was clearly busy doing something else!) and the cyclist will pretty much cover it. Very clever. Did get a bit confused by the dialogue on the rooftop though. Can't wait for series 3!

[GJ Drought]

well thats spoiled it!

[Worm]

Lethal Biddle, on 16 January 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Spoiler

In the book they fight & both fall into the depths & are both assumed dead. But no bodies are recovered. Holmes returns 3 years later, but Moriarty never did.

Spoiler

Which is what I thought. It's never confirmed that Moriarty is dead, although he never appears in the stories again. Of course, the modern series has it easier, in that they know Holmes is going to come back - Conan Doyle genuinely tried to kill him off and was forced to bring him back by audience pressure. So all in all, we may never know for sure. I have checked the books and Holmes does later refer to Moriarty as 'the late Professor Moriarty', and if we stick to script then we would assume that Homes would only do so if he was sure - but he could be wrong.

All of which is just to make the point that there is nothing specific from the Canon to stop Moriarty surviving.

This post has been edited by Worm: 17 January 2012 - 11:46 AM

[GJ Drought]

10 spoilers! trying hard guys! but youre making this look far too interesting! if i didnt know better id think you were spoilerin just to promote this show!

[Lethal Biddle]

GJ Drought, on 17 January 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

10 spoilers! trying hard guys! but youre making this look far too interesting! if i didnt know better id think you were spoilerin just to promote this show!

Spoiler

You're not reading them are you? You'll spoil it for yourself

[GJ Drought]

arsebiscuits!

[Joinee Varwell]

Now I have an interesting theory, about the most exciting part of the ending.

Spoiler

I don't really. I just wonder how many people will avoid reading this thinking it's an important give-away. Maybe you could greet it with great enthusiasm and aclarity so others wonder what precisely they're missing?

[Joinee McD]

It seems as though everyone has loved this second series but I don't think it matches up to the first at all, and there have been some utterly RIDICULOUS elements to this series... but anyway...

Spoiler

If it turns out to be a corpse (Moriarty's or not) dressed up as Sherlock and pushed off the roof I will be VERY disappointed

[Lethal Biddle]

Joinee McD, on 17 January 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

Spoiler

If it turns out to be a corpse (Moriarty's or not) dressed up as Sherlock and pushed off the roof I will be VERY disappointed

Spoiler

My problem with that is that we saw his arms flailing as he fell... Which would make it being a body a bit of a a deus ex machina. Unless it was planted after the fall. Maybe Sherlock jumped into the garbage truck at the same time a body was thrown out of it?

[Joinee Smith]

Lethal Biddle, on 18 January 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Spoiler

My problem with that is that we saw his arms flailing as he fell... Which would make it being a body a bit of a a deus ex machina. Unless it was planted after the fall. Maybe Sherlock jumped into the garbage truck at the same time a body was thrown out of it?

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qaMXCSciAQs Check out 4m06s in this clip. The garbage truck full of bin bags is visible and drives off as soon as Sherlock hits the pavement. If a body hit the pavement right next to where you were waiting in a truck, the last thing you would do would be to drive off. You'd be too much in shock for a start. Sherlock hit the bin bags full of padding, threw on a bit of fake blood and then lay on the pavement. Would also explain how he got down there so quickly. They needed a confused Watson, as he'd spot that Sherlock wasn't really dead/hurt if he had all his marbles on the go.

This post has been edited by Joinee Smith: 18 January 2012 - 10:53 AM

[Lethal Biddle]

Joinee Smith, on 18 January 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qaMXCSciAQs Check out 4m06s in this clip. The garbage truck full of bin bags is visible and drives off as soon as Sherlock hits the pavement. If a body hit the pavement right next to where you were waiting in a truck, the last thing you would do would be to drive off. You'd be too much in shock for a start. Sherlock hit the bin bags full of padding, threw on a bit of fake blood and then lay on the pavement. Would also explain how he got down there so quickly. They needed a confused Watson, as he'd spot that Sherlock wasn't really dead/hurt if he had all his marbles on the go.

Spoiler

Maybe... Although I mostly throw away tin cans, glass & bones... which I'd hardly describe as padding. But it works in theory if he avoided skewering himself & made a second hasty leap.

[joinee coolio]

Lethal Biddle, on 18 January 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Spoiler

Maybe... Although I mostly throw away tin cans, glass & bones... which I'd hardly describe as padding. But it works in theory if he avoided skewering himself & made a second hasty leap.

Spoiler

You should be recycling tin cans and glass! I think that Jason's is a good theory though, was thinking along those lines.

[Lethal Biddle]

joinee coolio, on 18 January 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Spoiler

You should be recycling tin cans and glass! I think that Jason's is a good theory though, was thinking along those lines.

Spoiler

I like that we're spoilering this now, even though we're talking about our recycling.
I do recycle glass & cans. I recycle everything in fact! We have glass, cans, paper, food & plastic all separate. But they still all go in the same rubbish truck together, just in different coloured bags.

[Joinee Michelle]

I liked Sherlock. I had no prior knowledge really as I never read the books or watched it growing up.

Do we stil need to spoiler? Really? It was days ago now and anyone who hasn't caught up shouldn't be in this thread.

[Worm]

Spoiler

one thing that occurs to me - although I haven't gone back to check - do we know how long Watson was knocked out for? The way it's presented made it seem like a second or so, but it could easily have been longer, and everything afterwards ould be a big setup.

There's plenty of room for manouvre, and to be honest it may never be entirely clear. There are many ways it could have been done, and they may well never actually reveal how it was done.

Similar to other concerns, if it turns out to be a fairly mundane 'throw another body off the roof' and 'Watson saw what he wanted to see' explanation, then it'll be a massive let down. The arms moving thing is a bit of a concern, because although Watson may have imagined it - it was presented from another POV, so was presented as truth.

Just noticed - you can get Series one on DVD for about a fiver, and about 7 quid for the Blu-Ray. Series two is out next week.

[GJ Drought]

right im watching this tonight! only so i dont have to look at these spoilers!

[Mr Phil]

Spoiler

SURPRISE!

[PJ Hannah B-R]

I see the Americans have well and truly pissed off the BBC (particularly BBC America) by just creating their own version "elementary" set in modern New York.

Bad luck Beeb.

[Joinee Smith]

Lethal Biddle, on 18 January 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Spoiler

Maybe... Although I mostly throw away tin cans, glass & bones... which I'd hardly describe as padding. But it works in theory if he avoided skewering himself & made a second hasty leap.

Spoiler

The garbage truck is in on it and full of padded bags rather than spiky rubbish. Saying that, if you look at the distance the jumper falls and the size of the target that would be a big ask even for a professional stuntman. They tend to fall on big air bags that slow your decent and they go back first rather than face first. There would be bags knocked off the truck due to the energy of the impact. And it would be a tough fall to get up from face first and roll onto the pavement and put fake blood on.

Jason

[Gaz]

All that said, bear in mind:

Spoiler

In the original, both Holmes and Moriarty were very much supposed to be dead. Conan Doyle completely retconned Holmes back to life by more or less saying "oh, I survived and then came back". So any sort of an attempt at a plausible explanation is already one up on the books