[Joinee Hathorn]

The aerodynamics play a part as does the engine, however the previously uncompetitive teams, Williams, Honda, Toyota, who are exploiting the possible diffuser loophole (although it seems like its is actually a crash structure (if you believe them)) are gaining a significant advantage in an area of aerodynamics which the others deem to be illegal. The modification allows more of a venturi effect and consequently this provides more downforce, therefore there is more power being provided to accelerate the cars. Clearly this is an aero effect, but if it was made illegal a significant benefit would be lost. Toyota and Williams both have a different configuration to Brawn, so really they are the only competition worth comparing them to in this currently theoretical debate.

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

Noel, I've not heard about the Flybrid system.... what is it?

[Joinee Hathorn]

The flybrid system uses a flywheel energy storage system rather than batteries to store the recovered braking energy, the flywheel is a carbon fibre composite which is accelerated up to speed with the recovered kinetic energy and (i think) when required the rotational momentum is engaged through a torotrac continuously variable transmission to provide a boost to the wheels. (see here for flybrid) If you can follow italian, this should explain it all....

There are some gyroscopic effects to overcome, but it should be a lighter package considering the batteries required for the other version.

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

I almost commented earlier something about not having KERS means not having that additional weight..... but then I thought, I don't know if that's actually a factor because the non-KERS team will still have to be at a specific weight. Or will the KERS teams just be lots heavier, because of the KERS? Or would the non-KERS teams be able to put ballast in at more advantageous parts of the cars? I really don't know how all that works, I'm not very good at technical details.

The comment earlier about the diffuser argument not being the only one: looks like the other major argument brewing (or one of them, at least) is the fact that the teams are owed money by Bernie, and he's refusing to pay it. There is talk being bandied about of the teams boycotting a race in order to get their money back. Not sure if this is just everyone getting over excited in the pre-season tension though.

And gah, today was the first time I read about the whole diffuser thing as being "diffuser-gate". That got old a *long* time ago, what with the million billion F1-gates we've had over the past year or so. Come on journos, give it up already. Pleeeease.

[oh, and thanks for the explanation, Noel I almost understand, which I think is the best I can hope for.]

This post has been edited by Silver Poohbah: 25 March 2009 - 03:48 PM

[Joinee Hathorn]

Depending on the weight of the driver, the KERS may push the overall car weight over the minimum. Kubica thinks it will penalise him, so may not run it at all... Bascially non-KERS could provide a weight advantage, but it depends on the driver.

The money owed seems pretty straight forward, Toyota Renault and McLaren were owed money for signing the new Concorde agreement...and as yet they haven't signed it. As Bernie said “If they come in here with a gun and hold it to my head, they had better be sure they can f***ing pull the trigger,” he said. “And they should make sure it’s got bullets in it because, if they miss, they better look out.”

[Gaz]

Silver Poohbah, on 25 Mar 2009, 03:48 PM, said:

And gah, today was the first time I read about the whole diffuser thing as being "diffuser-gate". That got old a *long* time ago, what with the million billion F1-gates we've had over the past year or so. Come on journos, give it up already. Pleeeease.

To be fair, it's been pretty old since Watergate full stop!

[DG Joinee NEMESIS]

Silver Poohbah, on 25 Mar 2009, 03:48 PM, said:

I almost commented earlier something about not having KERS means not having that additional weight..... but then I thought, I don't know if that's actually a factor because the non-KERS team will still have to be at a specific weight. Or will the KERS teams just be lots heavier, because of the KERS? Or would the non-KERS teams be able to put ballast in at more advantageous parts of the cars? I really don't know how all that works, I'm not very good at technical details.

I ahve to say that i find the weight vs. KERS argument a stunning one and possibly one of the first times I've really been into the detail comparison and i'm gagging to see what difference it makes. Typically my understanding from various sources is that depending on the KERS implementation, it adds between 25 and 45kg to the base weight of the car. This may not sound much when you think about a road car. But in an F1 car it's a monstrous amount. However, some teams are illustrating that it merely reduces the amount of "ballast" that it is possible to move around in the car. So perhaps it's horses for courses and down to team choice. Ballast is a key part of altering the dynamic of F1 cars and so to sacrifice that - will change the team set-up for every single race in the season, effectively eliminating any comparable date regarding down force and car pitching under breaking...irrespective of the car alterations.

At that stage then - the per lap usage vs. the weight implications for the handling, dynamics and flow of a vehicle in motion is a true example of the engineering freedom that has perhaps been lacking in some of the latter years of F1, a common complaint of many teams.

In the end though "flybird" has a different set of recoverable energy issues, given the gyroscope effect can be "marked" and "difficult" to manage. overall, i'm looking forward to seeing both the change in driving. Lots of the driver reports using KERS are illustrating a substantial change in driving style, comparable to a lesser degree I imagine to having a NOS button in your car, where timing and longevity of the boost are key factors. Or possibly distractions some might say...

regardless, having read up on the "diffuser" argument ( i refuse to use the word "gate" here - fecking tabloids) seems to me to be only part of a number of arguments against carious Melbourne politics and issues. some might say it's inevitable with so many changes. Others may say "picky picky picky"

Either way - I'm severely considering breaking my "Twitters, what the hell is the point, get a life" rule on this one.
Which is a serious thing for me!

Gaz, on 25 Mar 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

To be fair, it's been pretty old since Watergate full stop!

Seconded


edit: Forgot to add about ballast

This post has been edited by Silver Joinee 'The Daddy': 25 March 2009 - 06:01 PM

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

Gaz, on 25 Mar 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

To be fair, it's been pretty old since Watergate full stop!

Fair point!

It was just so outrageously over-used last season (and the season before, I think), that now it makes me feel slightly violent inside.

(I'm clearly a well-balanced individual )

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

Me again. According to the surely 100% reliable f1scoop on Twitter: "7 teams set to submit 3 protests each". This weekend could well descend into an absolute farce. Ted will be very excitable in the pitlane, I'm sure.

Also, Brawn are said to be in financial troubles, with possibly 300 Brackley staff having to go... And Toyota have brought a different, definitely legal, diffuser with them to Oz, just in case. Brawn and Williams couldn't afford to do so (please refer to earlier sentence). Oh, and DC is Red Bull's reserve driver coz their little boy fellow didn't get his superlicense, and the Renault drivers have taken a pay cut.




[edit to add]
This vid was quite fun I could never be a racing driver for, well, many reasons (lack of ability to drive being the first, but I'm working on that).. but also coz I'm no good at details so could absolutely not remember all this stuff. I'd just be like '...err... I think there's a corner, um, somewhere...!'

This post has been edited by Silver Poohbah: 25 March 2009 - 07:56 PM

[dazface]

Silver Poohbah, on 25 Mar 2009, 06:48 PM, said:

This vid was quite fun

I hope he doesn't drive round the track he drew on Sunday, could end up messy... also did you see at the end when he took the blind fold off he quickly scribbled and joined his 'track' up... disgusting!

Anyway, I read the other day that the big drivers, well tall ones like Webber and Kubica have been told to slim down even more so they get some more ballast to play with. I think most teams are planning on putting the KERS system in to the fuel tank which may have an effect on range during the race and will move the centre of gravity much higher and towards the rear (well relative to what they'd like anyway) so this would make the cars more 'oversteery'. And as a lot of the other rule changes have resulted in a more 'oversteery' car, such as the new rear wing and the new tyres (apparently the rears are currently degrading much quicker than the fronts), it has been said that rather than more overtaking there might just be more crashing/mistakes, specially in the early season when the drivers are still getting used to proper race conditions.

[PJ Stevie G]

And so the fun and games properly begin...

Stewards deem Brawn, Toyota and Williams cars legal. BMW, Ferrari, Red Bull and Renault lodge official protests to the decision

[Gaz]

They should just give up and make everyone drive tuk-tuks powered by saturn 5 rockets. Now THAT would be a race!

[PJ Stevie G]

Update: Protests rejected, appeals lodged.

There we have it, results for the first two races are going to be held in limbo until after 5th April. Great.

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

So Branson wasn't sniffing around Honda for no reason at all.... Virgin to sponsor BrawnGP

[dazface]

Silver Poohbah, on 26 Mar 2009, 04:42 PM, said:

So Branson wasn't sniffing around Honda for no reason at all.... Virgin to sponsor BrawnGP

I was just about to post that

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

I couldn't visualise what they were all talking about before, as technical details are not my forte... so, for anyone else who wants a peek: Compare the diffusers

dazface, on 26 Mar 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

I was just about to post that

I believe the word I'm looking for is........ Ha!

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

This link has a lot more about the diffusers.

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

Friday practice timings!

Exciting times

[dazface]

Hamilton was 18th in second practice today... YAY!

Also the term 'diffuser gang' has started to be used for Williams, Brawn and Toyota, I think I want to be in that gang.

Silver Poohbah, on 27 Mar 2009, 09:47 AM, said:

Friday practice timings!

Exciting times

Ok can you please stop posting stuff before me!! Dam my slowness!!

[PJ Stevie G]

Great times for The diiffuser three and Red Bull, but I'm incredibly surprised that the Ferraris were 10th and 11th, even more than McLaren.

And don't worry dazfacearmlegman, we're all regularly outposted by everyone else. Especially by those who like F1 posts, such as me and Lou.

[GJ Drought]

im not really too sure these test times give much of an idea as to whats going on!

i fully expect ferarri and mclaren to keep things in the dark until race time!

also the times are around 8 seconds slower a lap on last years testing! thats a massive difference!

[PJ Stevie G]

I don't know, I think the fact it's been consistent over these two sessions shows something. Of course we don't know how much fuel was in for all those laps but I really don't think McLaren are sandbagging at all anymore. They have big problems.

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

Well Lewis was struggling to see properly when driving the car...!

I don't really think McLaren are 'keeping things in the dark' but I still am resigned to the fact that they'll work all day/night and suddenly go POP! up at the top.

It's nice seeing Williams at the top again [for that session at least]. Seeing as the Hill years are the first ones that I really remember watching, Williams at the top just seems to be where they belong. To quote Bumble Allen: "Frank Williams must be on the edge of his seat!!"....

And, I CAN'T BLOODY WAIT!! Unfortunately, due to being at home and parentals being easily woken and grumpy when tired, I won't be getting up to watch it live. But I'll Sky+ it and get up about 8am to watch, methinks. I HATE not watching F1 live, but I think this is the best I can do for quali. Stevie, when are you watching it?


[edit to quickly clarify a bit that I'm not convinced that Williams are now definitely top dog..]

This post has been edited by Silver Poohbah: 27 March 2009 - 11:20 AM

[PJ Stevie G]

Silver Poohbah, on 27 Mar 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

Well Lewis was struggling to see properly when driving the car...!

I don't really think McLaren are 'keeping things in the dark' but I still am resigned to the fact that they'll work all day/night and suddenly go POP! up at the top.

It's nice seeing Williams at the top again [for that session at least]. Seeing as the Hill years are the first ones that I really remember watching, Williams at the top just seems to be where they belong. To quote Bumble Allen: "Frank Williams must be on the edge of his seat!!"....

And, I CAN'T BLOODY WAIT!! Unfortunately, due to being at home and parentals being easily woken and grumpy when tired, I won't be getting up to watch it live. But I'll Sky+ it and get up about 8am to watch, methinks. I HATE not watching F1 live, but I think this is the best I can do for quali. Stevie, when are you watching it?


[edit to quickly clarify a bit that I'm not convinced that Williams are now definitely top dog..]

It shall be live for me of course. I shall make sure I don't ruin it for you with texts and will spoiler all the things I post here *nods*

[dazface]

I have just been told quite possibly the most shocking story about Coulthard... I thought more of him...
(PM for details)

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

StevieSteve, I'll text you when I watch it. And I won't be checking on here until after I watch it (but others might want it spoilering)

Armlegman, PM me the story! I'm a bit in two-minds about DC. I'm not against him, but I'm not desparately keen on him, but when he drew me a little picture in crayon without me even suggesting that he did so, that did win me over somewhat.

This post has been edited by Silver Poohbah: 27 March 2009 - 11:31 AM

[PJ Stevie G]

Silver Poohbah, on 27 Mar 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

StevieSteve, I'll text you when I watch it. And I won't be checking on here until after I watch it (but others might want it spoilering)

Armlegman, PM me the story! I'm a bit in two-minds about DC. I'm not against him, but I'm not desparately keen on him, but when he drew me a little picture in crayon without me even suggesting that he did so, that did win me over somewhat.

Yay! Lou F1-texts!

And yes, Coultard story please. Intriguing.

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

I may be currently jiggling in my chair just at the thought of it all. Eep!

Even though I'm fairly sure it's going to make me cry. I'm just not sure if it'll be in a good or bad way.

I remember one time an episode of Neighbours was entitled "Cricket makes me cry". I'm like that. But with F1, not cricket. (I think they've stopped naming Neighbours episodes now, which is a pity, because they were frequently amusing).

[dazface]

Ok I'm going to get this one in first... I think The 50 Greatest F1 Drivers

[PJ Stevie G]

Sneak peek of the titles...

This post has been edited by Silver Stalker Stevie G: 27 March 2009 - 06:54 PM

[dazface]

Now having read the 'Top 50'... Hamilton 20th?! NO WAY!!!

Good to see Jenson in there though but no Vettel.... yet....

[PJ Stevie G]

dazface, on 27 Mar 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

Now having read the 'Top 50'... Hamilton 20th?! NO WAY!!!

Good to see Jenson in there though but no Vettel.... yet....

At least he isn't top 10 in that list; I've seen him placed that high after just his first season...

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

OK, let's stop faffing around. I'll be up at 5am.

[Mr Phil]

Excellent.

Just got up to catch the end.

Quote of the Day? Richard Branson:

"Okay, let's face it, I'm a lucky bastard."

"Apologies to any viewers offended by Richard's colourful language on the television."

"Oh, are we on television now?"

"Yes, we're live on the BBC."

[dazface]

That was awesome!!! Not just the Branson interview, which was funny but the qualifying!! Never thought I'd say this but I can't wait to wake up early on a Sunday!

[PJ Stevie G]

I love F1.

I also have a fondness for P15

A very good top 3. All likeable people. I'll be rooting for P1 and P3 though.

[dazface]

Hahaha P15... and that's if he doesn't need a gearbox change *prays*

[Janey]

Oh good. Another tedious season of "lets bash the successful british F1 driver". How depressing.

Anyway, good performance by Brawn's lot, but I wonder if it's almost too good - they'll really have focused attention on the diffuser issue now, and if Ferrari start to get annoyed by being off the pace then it won't take long for them to start bending Bernie's ear...

I think it'll be an interesting season. Whether it'll also be a good season, I dunno. Depends how much things are tinkered with by the FIA.

[Gaz]

^^^

Sorry, that was me. Wrong login!

[PJ Stevie G]

Janey, on 28 Mar 2009, 09:30 AM, said:

Oh good. Another tedious season of "lets bash the successful british F1 driver". How depressing.

I've outlined my reasons before. I can't be arsed with having to defend my right to dislike him again.

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

A. MAY. ZING!

I am a happy girl. My boys did great the whole session through (although not sure how Mark ended up 10th coz I was too busy focusing on JB then, but oh well!)..... it isn't very often (in fact, never before) that my top 3 boys are in the top 3 slots in quali (even if that didn't last very long, it still happened!) I did wonder if maybe I might be dreaming.

As much as I hope that JB pulls it off tomorrow, and as much as I would be overjoyed if he did, and as much as as I believe that he could indeed do it........... I'm expecting Vettel to win, because I just don't dare expect the best to actually happen.

And the coverage was great. I thought Jakey handled it all really well, although I think EJ is gonna prove to be a bit of a handful for him to control!! I could just imagine folks offscreen desperately trying to get them to windup whilst Eddie and DC were bickering about something or other And I could have done without Martin's chest again But Mark (only just!) made up for that. I loved when after that segment, Jakey said to Martin "I'm sorry we made you take your top off for that!" We're all sorry, Jake. We're all sorry.

Anyway, SO thrilled for Jenson. He absolutely deserves that after the past two years. And Rubens absolutely deserves to be right up there with him too. (But, yes, I know Jens was on pole for Oz in 2006 and that didn't mark the start of a championship run or anything like that, so I'm being realistic).

And you-know-who being you-know-where was the icing on the very nice cake (where extra cake mixture was made so that the cake could still be big and good, but lots of mixture could be eaten too). (And no Gaz, not 'successful british driver bashing', but 'person we just so happen to find annoying bashing'. Can we give that argument a rest for a while??? We're not going to like him just because you disapprove of us not liking him because you think we dislike him for the wrong reason, even though that's not why we dislike him. ...... gosh, that was a long sentence. Oh well.)

Anyway, in summary: yay! ....can we just stop the season now please? I'm happy with it right now. And I have a feeling McLaren/Ferrari won't be behind the pace too long so I'm just gonna enjoy this whilst I can.

*fingers crossed for tomorrow*

This post has been edited by Silver Poohbah: 28 March 2009 - 09:53 AM

[dazface]

Janey, on 28 Mar 2009, 09:30 AM, said:

Oh good. Another tedious season of "lets bash the successful british F1 driver". How depressing.

Surely Button is the more successful British driver at the moment

[Gaz]

Silver Stalker Stevie G, on 28 Mar 2009, 09:32 AM, said:

I've outlined my reasons before. I can't be arsed with having to defend my right to dislike him again.

There's a difference between "dislike" on a personal basis and "actively revel in poor performance and stick the boot in". I dislike Manchester United and Chelsea, but if they're playing in Europe I'll still (admittedly reluctantly) hope they'll win because they're home teams.

[PJ Stevie G]

Gaz, on 28 Mar 2009, 10:34 AM, said:

There's a difference between "dislike" on a personal basis and "actively revel in poor performance and stick the boot in". I dislike Manchester United and Chelsea, but if they're playing in Europe I'll still (admittedly reluctantly) hope they'll win because they're home teams.

If I was someone who hadn't previously given him any credit for his racecraft or talent before then I'd agree with you. But I have. Instead, you get caught up on a throwaway statement that you probably wouldn't have battered an eyelid about had it been concerning any other driver. Just because he's British, it doesn't mean I have to support him or wish him well if I don't like him, and that's all it is. He's a great talent but to me, he's just dislikeable.

I support other drivers, and they're in the same 'league' as you will, so I'm going to be happy when a challenger has problems, no matter how early on it is.

[PJ Stevie G]

More news: Toyotas excluded from qualy

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

I will always be happy when the person I don't support has bad luck / ends up at the back / whatever. Hell, I don't even have to not like them. In GP2 last year, I was supporting Bruno and so no matter how lovely Georgio Pantano appeared to be (and whenever he refered to his car as 'she' my heart just melted), I still cheered when things went wrong for him and as such caused something to go right for Bruno. (Except in that case I did feel guilty. I'd be sitting there saying to the TV "Please spin out Georgio! I'm really sorry.. but... please!") Maybe this makes me a bad person, but oh well. Britishness/non-Britishness doesn't come into it in the slightest.

I...... meh, whatever. *drops it*


Poor Timo being at the back of the grid! Everything started so well. Boo. Oh well, here's hoping for a charge through the field...! (And on the plus side, Mark's got 2 less cars in front of him now...)

Oh, and coz I need to say it as much as I can whilst I can: YAY JENSON!!!!!!

[Poohbah (Gsq)]

Toyota's done a quick fix and it's been approved by the FIA. So they're all set for Timo to knock some socks off tomorrow...

Also, apparently there's been a whole long kerfuffle all day where Williams complained that something to do with the sidepods on the Ferrari and RBR weren't legal... but then after lots of hours, Williams decided to drop it. clicky.

[Gaz]

This is all getting a bit silly now. I hope the whole season isn't bogged down with technical complaints deciding things rather than actual racing.

[PJ Stevie G]

That was a fun race.

Spoiler

Hoorah for Button! Great job by him though I was very worried for him during his pitstop and before Kubica and Vettel crashed, but the bo done good. As did Barrichello.

And very good recovery drives by the Toyotas and Hamilton. Sure, all the cards fell right for them at the right time, but they were points scoring at least before Kubica and Vettel went out together.

I feel sorry for Vettel though. I like him still.

This post has been edited by Silver Stalker Stevie G: 29 March 2009 - 09:05 AM

[Worm]

Can someone please gather the necessary material to calm down Lou Massara

Spoiler

Button just won and she's gonna be unbearable....

This post has been edited by Worm: 29 March 2009 - 07:46 AM